Christine Schlonski [0:02]
Hey Gorgeous! This is episode number 270 with the wonderful Peter Sandeen.

Peter Sandeen [0:08]
Hi, this is Peter Sandeen, you’re listening to Heart Sells! Podcast with Christine Schlonski enjoy.

Christine Schlonski [0:14]
I’m so super pumped to have Peter Sandeen on the show for you today he is called often “The Marketer’s Marketer”. And you might be wondering why is that? And it’s pretty simple, over half of his clients are other marketing experts who want to see their own blind spots and to make sure they’re focused on what matters most. And that is where Peter comes in. He is best known for creating marketing messages that make people immediately feel that’s perfect for me. And in today’s episode, you find out more about understanding the decision-making process so you can create better messages for your marketing. And in today’s episode, you will learn more about understanding the decision-making process. And all that Peter has learned in his career to support all these amazing marketing rockstars with their messages. Well, I am so excited to have you here today. Peter, welcome.

Peter Sandeen [1:21]
Thank you.

Christine Schlonski [1:22]
It was just a pleasure to have you at the Sales Mentality Makeover Masterclass. And you shared amazing, amazing values. So I could not wait to get you on Heart Sells! Podcast to share your wisdom with more listeners from all around the globe who might not have had the opportunity to see the masterclass. And I just love what you do because you’re so creative and you’re so great at playing with words and messages. So was this like a path you always knew you wanted to be on?

Peter Sandeen [1:58]
No, absolutely not. Marketing was pretty much the one thing that my parents told me is evil. And like no good person would ever go into marketing. So no, it was definitely not in the stars for me. It was why ended up getting a couple of different degrees and starting a business in both and then getting bored with the business pretty much as soon as I started. And then my wife or then still girlfriend pointing out that like, you just talked about marketing, how to market these businesses, and you get bored as soon as you figure it out. So what if you would do marketing? Yeah, I’ve been on that road since then.

Christine Schlonski [2:34]
So funny, it basically the same thing happened for me, like, you know, I had so many other plans to serve clients. And then one person was like, you always teach sales. Do you really want us to throw away over a decade of that experience? And I was like, let me think about it. And then it really clicked and ever since I’m so grateful that she shared with me because otherwise, I don’t know where I would have started to which path I would have started to go down. So very exciting. So do you remember like when you because you, you’ve, I think you are pretty entrepreneurial or maybe you started out already pretty entrepreneurial. Do you remember the very first thing you ever sold?

Peter Sandeen [3:22]
The first thing probably this I don’t know what is called in English, this sort of a job training thing that you go to on the ninth grade here in Finland. And I got to go into a music electronics store or like music technology store and like, what I think I don’t remember exactly what it was that I sold, but I ended up helping someone when the actual salespeople were busy and the customer came in and asked about some piece of technology like how does this work or something and, and I ended up helping them but the I don’t remember what it was but I remember just thinking that selling is super easy but this is before I understood what selling actually mean, I thought of as like, well, it’s customer service, I’m helping them find the right option for them, the one that is truly the best for them, it’s not necessarily the expensive one. It’s just the one that really fits them. And that’s sort of how I’ve ever since then thought of selling that that’s, that’s what I think selling is helping people find what is actually the best option for them. But yeah, I was very confused. Why is it that salespeople do anything else I understood later on, but like, in those first days, at least, I was, I was very baffled by the idea that it would be anything more than just, you know, they come in with a need and you’re just gonna tell them what they need. And like, that’s it.

Christine Schlonski [4:40]
Yeah, that’s simple. Right? And, and to love music, you’re really into sound quality and music as you shared. So I think that’s pretty cool. And because it kind of shows that the creativity and also taking that space, you know, giving yourself the time to listen. Right, I just filled our days we’re so busy with everything like I can’t even remember when I listen to music the last time because somehow the day just runs through my fingers. And you know, when I’m on a walk-in nature, obviously there are some birds and they sing but it’s not really music. I haven’t listened to music for a long time. So that was a good reminder having a look into your bio and into your fun facts saying, oh, quality of music. Yeah, I really need to go back and enjoy a little bit more. So …

Peter Sandeen [5:30]
The first degree I got was actually mixing engineering so.

Christine Schlonski [5:33]
Oh, okay. All right. Well, I’m glad that I have such a great person for the podcast. So when you then understood what sales is, when you saw that different from just being super excited, supporting someone, and making the right choice of a need that was already there, what changed for you?

Peter Sandeen [5:57]
Nothing. I still think that that is what sales should be in like, I’m not saying it’s somehow wrong if sales are something more, but rather that’s what I always aim for. And I see marketing as a way to get people to the point where they actually want to hear what it is that they need next. So, I know a lot of people think of marketing as well, you just generated a lead for salespeople to then start calling. And they call until they buy just out of frustration of being called so many times. I rather think of it as like marketing gets people to the point where they actually ask for, can we talk about this? Whether it is one-on-one or in some other way like they go to a sales page thinking that oh, this actually looks sounds really cool. I want to know more, and so on. So it hasn’t actually changed. I’ve just learned to see that people have different ideas of what it means but what I always aim for is still actually the same thing. Obviously, I understand better, like how many things you should recommend or like should you give them seven different options with nuance like tiny, nuanced differences, or should you maybe simplify things a little more for them. But like the basic idea, it’s still the same for me.

Christine Schlonski [7:11]
Yeah. And I love that. And I think that’s why, you know, you’re also such a perfect guest for the podcast, because you do sell from your heart. And you really want to support people making the right choice for them so they can get the biggest benefits. And then, you know, sales is a win-win for everybody. It feels good, it feels aligned, and everybody’s happy. So at the end of the day, it just creates positive emotions. And I think that’s so important. And I do believe that we all can create these situations. There’s no need to be the slimy sleazy salesperson running with some money, right, giving the 10th bonus, and doing like a ton of scarcity and kind of trick people in which obviously works. That’s why people use it. That’s how the brain is wired but that positive feeling really comes when you feel like you as a person who buys has made the decision.

Peter Sandeen [8:12]
Yeah, and like, I usually think that if there is a technique that many people use, like the false scarcity, there’s something there is a way to do it in a way that makes sense or isn’t false. It is isn’t misleading, but rather genuine. And if there isn’t, then maybe don’t do it. At least I rather don’t. If I can’t create genuine scarcity, then I don’t put some random scarcity thing there. But like, most businesses can create very realistic, like, genuine scarcity. So it’s, it’s not necessary. And the same goes for almost all the sales techniques that people hate, and like feel really bad about when they experience them. You can usually come up with ways to do the same but get the same effect. It might be harder. It might take a lot of time as I’ve spent, I don’t know how many hours now thinking through those things, because I’ve made a new webinar.

Peter Sandeen [9:05]
And I don’t want it to feel like I’m there to trick people into buying. But there are things that really help people see the value of something. And there are ways to do that in a way that isn’t really manipulative, but rather truly helps them see if this is right for them or not. Because that’s what a lot of those things are trying to get people to do like scarcity. It’s trying to force people into making a decision, yes or no, rather than just defaulting into, I won’t think about it. Because that can also mean that they should have bought it, it would have been good for them. They just never paid attention enough to actually decide. So then they just didn’t. And it’s fine to decide. No, but I’d rather try to help people make a decision yes or no. Instead of just indecision, because that’s almost never the best choice.

Christine Schlonski [9:52]
Yeah, and I totally agree. And that’s something weird what I discovered in my sales career, like having those maybes they just take your time they take your energy and at the end of the day, it is a no. So why not get it right then and there and kind of release both parties from that conversation? And it feels much better.

Peter Sandeen [10:15]
Yeah.

Christine Schlonski [10:17]
So what could you recommend for people like what is a good way to use as a natural scarcity or urgency?

Peter Sandeen [10:27]
Well, usually I try to make it into the offer in some way. So for example, I’m going to promote a new program, and I’m including coaching into it in the first for a while, so I get feedback. And it’s there’s a very realistic limit to how many people I can help like that. I’m not charging anywhere near what I would charge normally for that sort of coaching, or even what I might charge. If I sell it later on with the same type of coaching included, it’s still going to be many, many times more. So that’s a very real form of scarcity there is I’m taking a few people in so I can help them really one on one and get the feedback. And then it’s not available anymore.

Peter Sandeen [11:09]
But if there isn’t any actual scarcity like that, like no true scarcity, then one thing that I tried to do is, it gets the same effect with something else and what scarcity sort of relates to is the fear of missing out on something, which relates to just forcing, not forcing, but helping people decide yes or no. So then rather, it becomes about helping them see what is the cost of not taking action now? And like how much are you losing if you don’t? Or these are the things you can think of and if they’re bad for you, then okay, you should make a decision now because they will keep going continuing. On the other hand, if they’re not big issues, then okay, this isn’t for you. So there are many ways to sort of getting the same effect without starting to mislead people or add some random scarcity like well, there are only 17 copies of this PDF. So, once those are gone, or like clearly my costs will increase sevenfold at the end of the day. Like …

Christine Schlonski [12:09]
Yeah, I totally see.

Peter Sandeen [12:12]
Yeah, like, typically the things that I’ve sold are coaching. So there’s been a very easy way for me to personally to create those actual, like, realistic scarcity because truly is my calendar will fill up. But that’s what I always aim for with clients as well come up with ideally something that is part of the offer. And if not, then think of what creates the urgency to it, if not the fear of missing out on the offer. What else is there that creates the same feeling for people?

Christine Schlonski [12:42]
Yeah, yeah. And I personally love to work with people who can make a fast decision.

Peter Sandeen [12:48]
Yeah.

Christine Schlonski [12:49]
Because that shows me they are action takers and they are not there to like, dangle around a little bit and you know, not moving forward. Like all my clients are really great action takers. And I think it is important to guide people to make a decision. And, you know, you want to be committed to the goal that is to support that person if it’s the right fit. But you know, you don’t want to be committed to the outcome, which means are they saying yes or no? And then if they say, No, you totally are frustrated and sad, and I don’t know what else like don’t let that get to you. But hold that space, that in that space, the person can make the best decision for them.

Peter Sandeen [13:37]
Yeah, I think a lot of people when they see a webinar or something where at the end, the presenter says like for the first 10 people or for just the next 15 minutes, you can get this special bonus because I like action takers. Like it can sound like complete lies, but it’s usually not. There is truly a like a usually the people who take action immediately are the most fun to work with. It’s a guess sort of you shouldn’t say that out loud. But like that’s everyone in the industry knows that. I’ve never heard anyone argue against this. It just tends to be that way. It doesn’t mean that the people who need to think about it would be somehow worse people are not fun to work with. But on average, the most fun clients are the ones who are immediately like, yes, this is what I want. Let me in like, where can I buy it? Like I just want to get to it? Because that energy also pulls them through at a much higher rate than everyone else.

Christine Schlonski [14:31]
Yeah, totally when everything feels aligned like they can’t wait to sign up. I just love that because that tells me like they’re so the right client to work with. And, yeah, it’s true. Like, sometimes I feel when I say like, I love working with action takers, it sounds I don’t know. So overused over needed, but at the end of the day, it really comes down to these are the people that get the best results because they do take action.

Peter Sandeen [15:01]
Yep.

Christine Schlonski [15:02]
So how do you deal with on rejection?

Peter Sandeen [15:05]
I don’t usually think of it as rejection at all. I think of it as either it really wasn’t right for them, even if I thought that it would be. And then it’s good that they didn’t buy, or I see it as well, what could have I done differently so that if it was right for them, they would be more likely to see that they are just right for them. And I don’t usually ever think of an individual, even if I do one on one sales for like larger projects or something, but rather I think of, in general, what can I do to make it easier for people to see the value what, what would make that difference? So instead of it becoming a rejection, I see it as well. Okay, this didn’t work. This was like a test of one, one person, or test of one video or a test of one webinar or something. And what can I learn like if the response rate or the closing rate or the conversion rate was lower than usual than okay, something went wrong, what could it be? And then start testing. And instead of really thinking of, well, I must get to result x, I think of, well, I want to be on the path towards results x. And as long as I’m on that path, as long as I’m not somehow walking backward, that’s that sort of for all I can really control.

Christine Schlonski [16:23]
Hmm, yeah, that’s so valuable. Thank you for sharing that. Because you know that talking about rejection, I so often hear the frustration in people’s voices and that they do take it personally. And then they are so busy dealing with their own pain. Instead of checking in like, what could have been better or how can I tweak or pretty simple if you have the opportunity to talk to the person and ask them. What prevented them from buying? What prevented them from using the benefits your service or product would give them? So would you also recommend having that conversation with your client when they say no?

Peter Sandeen [17:05]
Or if you can, it doesn’t hurt unless you actually believe them. That’s the point. People lie unintentionally. And it’s okay. It’s not lying. People just don’t really understand themselves and their own decision making and if they do, which, again, it’s rare, but if they do, then they rarely want to actually tell you the truth about it. Because we don’t make decisions logically, we and this is not just marketers, this is neuroscientists saying the same thing. We make decisions with the part of the brain that only deals with emotion, nothing else. That’s what makes decisions. It does consult the other parts of the brain. So if the other parts of the brain are like, Hell, no, then it might stop. But it even if the other parts of the brain are like this the best thing ever, as long as that emotional side isn’t agreeing.

Peter Sandeen [17:57]
They don’t buy they just don’t. They will find some way to emotionally feel, or it’s not really emotionally it’s more about it’s called reptilian brain. But the point is, it’s about it’s interested in itself. It’s only interested in mating and survival and like biological like needs. So most people won’t tell you to say anything like that. The example that I often use is when people ask, so why did you buy a fancy iPhone? It’s like, well, because it syncs my calendar so easily with my Mac. It’s like, really? Did I spend like 800 euros on a phone that just because calendar sinking like no, but am I going to tell you actually, what no, I’m not going to tell you actually why I buy it no matter how you set up the questionnaire? So like, whenever you ask people’s opinions, remember that like, most likely they cannot give you realistic answers. And even if they could, they most likely won’t. So be extremely critical of whatever you find out whether it’s a questionnaire, whether it’s a survey or personal conversations, no matter how well-intentioned they are, and no matter how much they would like, to be honest, and so on, you cannot expect to truly get the right answers. You can get hints, and you can get individual things. So if you’re selling something to, let’s say, companies and seven out of seven declines, and they all say, well, it didn’t have this compliance there, so we just had to discard it, then yeah, okay, fix the compliance thing. But other than that, be very, very careful not to put too much weight on what people say.

Christine Schlonski [19:33]
Such an important point. Yeah, I learned when I actually did the high ticket sales. I started out that the first answer is always like an excuse, and you have to dig deeper, you really have to find a different way to ask so that at some point in the conversation, they might reveal the true reason and that was so astonishing for me, right? That was the first like oh no, we don’t have the budget. Okay. And then you keep talking and you know, you keep presenting and asking. And then all of a sudden, you know, there’s like a totally different reason and you’re already another 10, 15, maybe 20 minutes into the conversation, and then the real thing comes out. So yeah, it’s so fascinating how we think. And then also yeah, it’s difficult to say that they are lying, because includes us, right? We also have these excuses, like the first thing that comes to mind. But when you go deeper, you find well, you know, I bought this because I just think it’s good for my ego, talking about it, for example, which I don’t have one. But that’s it’s really interesting. I can see how powerful that is.

Peter Sandeen [20:57]
Yeah, but like, even if it is like, it’s usually not even if someone says, well, it’s about their ego, that’s still very vague. It can still be many different things. So, as he pointed out, they always find an excuse first, or 99% of the time, it’s the first answer is an excuse. But even you have to be really good at asking. And you have to be really good at understanding what sort of an answer might be true so that if they accidentally blurt it out, you can recognize that oh, that was the answer I was looking for. But yeah, like even ego, which often comes up in these conversations, I think it’s still a very vague thing. It could be that well, they think they want, like they want to be a certain kind of person. And they think that those kinds of people have an iPhone. It could be that the iPhone represents some sort of milestone for them or some sort of success that they want to signify to themselves. That’s also about ego, but it’s a very different reason for buying many other reasons as well. So it’s, it’s really like, you have to be very good at asking questions. To find the answers, that’s why people often ask like, do I do a lot of customer surveys and such when creating marketing messages? And usually no. Because it’s very hard to get to the real answers by asking questions. There’s, I think, an easier way to do it.

Christine Schlonski [22:17]
That’s interesting. So what could a person do when they are in a sales conversation?

Peter Sandeen [22:24]
Well, during a sales conversation, I think the more personal you can make the conversation, the better. Because the more comfortable you can make them, the more honest they might get. Not necessarily but the odds of them actually being honest with you go higher. And then letting them ask the questions letting them well not really ask the questions, but letting them just tell you to ask, so that means asking open-ended questions. And as much as you can, and this is the part that I at least I find very difficult is getting to the emotional parts. So a typical question would be well, what sort of goals do you have? Then they say some goals. If you’re good at it, then you can start digging into well, why do you actually care about those goals? And if they said something like, well make more money than a lot of people, if you just asked. Well, why do you care? They’re like both. Who doesn’t care? Obviously, I want more money. Like you have to be much better at wording the questions in a way that really makes them understand what sort of answers you’re looking for, and makes them feel comfortable with answering. I think sharing your own experience in some form might help. So you can tell that Well, for me, it used to be about making more money because of X, Y and Z. Do you mind sharing, like what are your, these reasons? So during a sales call, like that’s the sort of thing that I would go for.

Christine Schlonski [23:46]
Yeah, I love how you made that invitation. Just you know, by sharing your own story. And it’s also a beautiful way to connect with the person and not appearing just to ask so you ask right. But really meeting that meaningful, deeper relationship?

Peter Sandeen [24:05]
Yeah. And it’s rare that someone feels comfortable sharing as the first person to share because they already feel like you’re interrogating them to some degree. Like I’m exaggerating a little obviously, you can make it not feel like an interrogation, but like they are still the one to all the time and answer your questions up until that point, at least, if you’re doing sales, well, then most of the time at least it means that they’re asked they’re answering all your questions. So if you don’t share anything yourself, then it starts to feel like just sharing all your all their personal info, which most people are not very comfortable with. So sharing something equally personal. I think it’s the only even semi-consistent way to get there. I’ve heard of people who can do it consistently. Otherwise, I just don’t know-how.

Christine Schlonski [24:52]
But that would be a great topic for the next conversation. I’m so happy that we do have another interview set up but I do want to give people your amazing gift that you’re bringing. And it’s a test for your marketing message, which is obviously kind of the gateway to lead to a conversation. Because if nobody knows your marketing message, well, probably nobody’s gonna sign up for a call. Tell us a little bit about what people get when they sign up for your marketing message.

Peter Sandeen [25:22]
So I think of a marketing message, yes. What is it that you need to say? So people understand what they need to understand about your product or service, so they want to buy it. So the test is about just checking. How like, how likely are the things you’re now saying, to actually create that feeling that they really are the things that people need to understand for them to want to buy? It’s a very short one, just a couple of pages that just go through the process of like. Well, here’s it’s a very harsh test. A lot of people even marketing experts, or people who have been in business for decades have told that like, they never actually looked at their own stuff. This critically so it’s not necessarily very fun, but it can be very revealing.

Christine Schlonski [26:04]
Yes, and usually pretty rewarding, because then you can tweak, right? It’s like coming to the real reason. So that’s your opportunity. And I just want to invite everybody to check that out. The link is going to be in the show notes. But if you can’t wait, it’s petersandeen.com/value and all your links. Everything is in the show notes so people can connect with you and your amazing work. And I just want to invite everybody to do that, because you will be blown away. Thank you so, so much for your time today and I’m looking forward to our next interview.

Peter Sandeen [26:44]
Thank you.

Christine Schlonski [26:45]
Well, I took quite a few notes and I hope you are inspired as well and you are going away with some really great ideas to implement into your business. I just love how Peter was able to guide us through the process to guide us through his own personal journey. So again, you can understand that most people are not a natural-born salesperson. Most people kind of discovered their passion and what they want to bring to the world and then they figure out the sales game. And that might be you. So hop on over to christineschlonski.com check out Peter’s episode, all the links to Peter are right there, as well as in the resource section, his amazing gift. And I’m also going to give you the link to a video he did, where he will explain more of how to get more leads and sales with no more traffic. And this without fancy tools or tech and remember, PDF combines more or less 10 years of website work, and he really knows the things that most consistently generate positive results. And that’s what we’re all here for. We want to have this positive impact. So hop on over to christineschlonski.com/podcast check in on episode number 270. And into the resource section. And it’s just one click away, and you get all this wonderful free material.

Christine Schlonski [28:18]
So thank you so, so much for having been here. If you have not yet subscribed to “The Empowerment Notes” I highly recommend you do. You’ll also find that at christineschlonski.com and that will put you basically on a list where I will update you on Heart Sells! Podcast on the speakers, their topics, and all the amazing good things that are right now in the making, in creation, and you will be the first one to know. So never miss out on a podcast episode. Just subscribe. And also make sure that you are part of “The Empowerment Notes” so that I can give you all the updates right into your inbox and it’s just one click away. Thank you so much for having been here. In the next episode, I’m going to go deeper with Peter on “How to Create a Six-Figure Website and What That Will Take” so make sure you check that out as well. Have a wonderful day wherever you are in this beautiful world and I’m saying bye for now.