Christine Schlonski [0:02]
Hey Gorgeous! This is episode number 255 with the wonderful Judy Hoberman.

Judy Hoberman [0:08]
Hi, this is Judy Hoberman and you’re listening to Heart Sells! Podcast with Christine Schlonski. Enjoy!

Christine Schlonski [0:14]
Well I am so much looking forward to have another amazing conversation with Judy Hoberman. Why do I say another? Well, I already had the opportunity to talk to her a couple of times. And each time I’m just blown away, and I hope you will be blown away too. Judy has over three decades in business. She combines wisdom and humor was her behavior shaping insights, impacting audiences of 10 thousand as well as small groups, and even individuals. Men and women lead, sell, manage and recruit differently and Judy is a master at improving performance and company culture, empowering both genders to better support each other’s success in a more productive way. Judy is an award-winning international speaker, a best selling author, a trainer and leading authority on women in leadership. And I can only say you will get a ton out of this episode and you will learn how to ask your price with confidence among other amazing things. So let’s dive right in. Well, I am so super excited you are here today Judy. Welcome.

Judy Hoberman [1:29]
Thank you so much. I have been looking forward to our time together I love our time together so.

Christine Schlonski [1:34]
Yeah, totally. I loved having you on the sales mentality makeover master class and you know, each conversation we had so far you provided so much value and the listeners just loved it. So I can’t wait to dive in on this podcast episode and you know, get some more amazing content out of sharing all your wisdom. And yeah, so let’s dive right in. Do you remember like the very, very first thing that you ever sold in your life?

Judy Hoberman [2:05]
Oh, yeah, Girl Scout cookies. That was, that was the first thing I sold, I was probably seven or eight. And I had no idea what I was supposed to do. My mom was the cookie lady. So there was a lot of pressure on me. And this was before you were allowed to go to any of the superstores, the big stores and stand outside or have your parents go into an office. And so you were actually door to door. And I would, you know, take the orders, and I’d write down what they said and so on. And then when I would deliver them, I would thank them. But the true part was the next year when I came back, I would say, Hi, Christine, last year, you bought fitments and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, do you want to try the new things? And all of a sudden, like my sales, would double and triple? And so yeah, so it was the first time I ever sold and it was a good learning experience on how to build a relationship with somebody. And I got lots of referrals as well.

Christine Schlonski [2:55]
Wow, you’re such a smart kid. Like you didn’t suffer from selling at all right, so many people challenges. So how did it feel when you got your very first order?

Judy Hoberman [3:06]
My very first order I think I started to cry. I said, you know, our they said yes to me and they gave me money and all of this. And I thought this is really cool. I could do this again. It was really fun because I never really sold anything. And I never sold to this person, either. I just said, you know, I’m a Girl Scout troop 981. And we’d love for you to support us and blah, blah, blah. And they said, sure, what have you got? And that was it. So you just have to be prepared when somebody says yes, it’s easier when they say no because it’s just shut down when they say yes, you have to think. Okay, now what? Yeah

Christine Schlonski [3:40]
It’s such a great point. And I think most people are not fully prepared when they go into sales. That, you know, somebody else says yes, right away. That’s for most it’s a surprise.

Judy Hoberman [3:52]
Yeah, absolutely. And so yeah, it’s so it’s much easier if something, okay. It’s much easier, it doesn’t feel good when somebody says no. But then you almost take like the sigh of relief going, okay, you know, I didn’t say anything wrong, they just didn’t want it and then you can move along. But when they say yes, and then they say, tell me what you have, you have to be prepared with what it is you want to give them. And, you know, I always hear when somebody is preparing for a meeting. And I always say, well, do you have all the details? And do you know what you’re charging? And they’re like, no, not yet. Okay, but when are you going to know this? Well, I’ll see how they sound. No, no, you can’t do that. You have to be prepared. You have to do you know, it’s, it’s almost like you have to know what you’re going to say ahead of time. It’s almost repetition, but it has to sound like it’s the first time you’ve ever said it. So, you know.

Christine Schlonski [4:40]
Yeah, yeah. It’s like practicing big numbers, right. I remember in my very first sales job, I had to see this big number. And correct, I could barely get it out of my mouth. And so you know, just having the conversation and practicing the sales call is super, super important.

Judy Hoberman [4:57]
Yeah, my very first business coach said to me, if you cannot say what you’re charging without stuttering or coughing or choking or laughing, then you can’t say it. And she told me to practice in front of a mirror, and I was selling a coaching program. And I mean, it was a very small coaching program, but she said to me, I want you to look in the mirror and say, it’s $25,000. And here’s what’s included. Well, it wasn’t anywhere near $25,000. But I had to keep saying that, and I would say it’s 25. And I’d start to laugh or it’s 25 and I’d start to cough. And then after doing it like I don’t know, maybe a dozen times, it just said I was $25,000 here’s what’s included. And so you have to be prepared. The number is an important part of it because that’s what you’re telling somebody it’s worth. And that’s hard. That’s really hard.

Christine Schlonski [5:45]
And did you feel that shift like after you could say the number even knowing you’re not charging that number? Did that number feel like more comfortable to save for you like when did it really sink in so that you could believe that it was possible to change these numbers?

Judy Hoberman [6:01]
Yeah. And actually the first time I said it, I said it’s $25,000 here’s what you get. And she looked at me, I’m like, kidding, just kidding. Because I was so prepared to say that, and she was like, What? How What? And I said I’m just kidding. I’m just kidding. So any number I would have said after that would be okay, you know, if it was just, it was funny, because I was so prepared.

Christine Schlonski [6:23]
Love it. I just love it. And do you think that Girl Scout cookie sales career sparked the, you know, drive to be in sales one day?

Judy Hoberman [6:34]
I think it might have started that but what really really was the kicker was I was a fuller brush person, a salesperson, and if you don’t know it full of brushes, it’s the door to door sales, and it’s brooms and mops and brushes and things that really are not exciting. And the very first door I knocked on was my mom, because I thought this is easy. I could at least get my first sale. And she said no to me. Yeah, and but she actually taught me two lessons. Number one, she said, just because someone loves you doesn’t mean they’re going to buy something they don’t need. True. But number two, just because somebody loves you, they will share you with their friends, referrals. So when she said no to me, I mean, I really was, I wasn’t prepared for that. And then she said, but I do know that you know, so and so needs mops. And so and so. So she gave me referrals. And it was a lesson and that was probably, I don’t know, maybe 18 years old or 19 years old. It was a lesson that I remember that I always talk about to let everybody know somebody is going to say no to you if they don’t need it doesn’t matter how they care about you. And it’s a really big lesson, but also the second half of it is that they will share you so that really drove me into sales.

Christine Schlonski [7:46]
Wow, that is so powerful. I just love that. Yeah. So again, people who don’t need it, are not going to buy it and care about you. If have that relationship, if you build that relationship, they will refer you.

Judy Hoberman [8:05]
Absolutely, absolutely. And that’s what you have to, I mean, sales is about relationships. It’s not about anything else other than relationships. If somebody doesn’t like you, they’re gonna find somebody else that’s selling what they need that you are. So it means, but if they like you, they want to keep you in the circle. So how do they do that? They introduce you to family, they introduce you to friends, they just keep you there, because they want to be around you. And eventually, they might need what you have.

Christine Schlonski [8:30]
So basically, the saying is true that people buy you, then your product as an excuse.

Judy Hoberman [8:37]
Totally, that’s exactly what it is. Think about Southwest Airlines, they’re a people company. Well, they just want you to have a good experience. They’re funny, they’re comfortable, they’re inviting. Oh, and by the way, they fly airplanes. That’s, that’s how they describe themselves. Oh, yeah, we also fly but we do all of this. And I think that that’s important that you know, it’s about the experience, especially with women, I mean women want that experience anyway, so to men, but most women are looking for something, somebody that’s going to understand them and bring them into the circle. So.

Christine Schlonski [9:10]
Yeah, so true. Yeah, let’s talk about this. What’s the difference between women, a woman buying, and men.

Judy Hoberman [9:18]
So I like to always think about you going into a department store, and a man is going in to buy a shirt. He’s going in to buy a shirt. That’s exactly what he’s doing. He’s buying a shirt, he doesn’t want anything else. He wants the shirt. Women are going in to buy the blouse. But with the blouse, there’s the skirt, and then there’s the necklace and the belt. And then there’s the earrings and there’s because she wants to, she wants to be able to have the story. When I went into the store to get this blouse, I also got blah, blah, blah, and she’s building relationships with everyone and everything around. Men are very much transactional where they go in, they buy what they need, and they leave. Now it could be the next hour that they think oh, I should have bought the belt and they can go back for the belt but at that point moment they’re laser-focused on what they want. So the difference is really more transactional versus relational.

Christine Schlonski [10:07]
Yeah, I can totally confirm because you know, my husband, but you know, I need that new top or whatever. And he would come along, like, God forbid if I’m looking for something else than that. Like, well, you said you need to top. Why are you looking at shoes?

Judy Hoberman [10:23]
Well, exactly.

Christine Schlonski [10:26]
Exactly. Yeah. It’s really amazing. So what does it tell us when we as women do, want to our audience that we sell to include men?

Judy Hoberman [10:38]
Well, I mean, you can’t, unless you separate male from female you have to be able to incorporate both. And so one of the first things I always say is you have to be able to first and foremost include the woman into the conversation, whether she brought you in or he brought you in, you have to because women influence 85% of all consumer purchasing decisions. So if you don’t bring her in, you’re out totally. That’s first and foremost. The second thing is you have to be able to speak differently and listen differently. Men are looking for the bottom line and facts and figures and features and benefits. Women are looking for the story. And they’re looking to see how, what you are going to offer me, how does it affect me? And the people around me? So for instance, I sold insurance for many, many years, I would never go in and say, what kind of insurance do you want? How much do you want to spend? Even though those were the male questions that I was going to have to get to? But my first question to her would be, tell me why it’s important to have this policy in place. So she’s now telling me everything I’m taking notes, and then I would say to him, so when did you want this to start? You know what I mean? So I got what she said. We talked about everything, she was included, she was the most important part of the conversation. She actually gave me her why, now I need to tie it down with that so you go with open ended questions. To close-ended questions, but you have to be able to speak both languages. I love that, always fun.

Christine Schlonski [12:06]
Yes. And I love that you just said you have to speak both languages. Yeah, definitely means there are two languages. And I experienced that over and over again that you it’s a different style and way of selling if you just sell to a man than when you sell to a woman, and I think many people who start their own businesses, they’re not really aware of the fact that they come from their perspective, and they want to feel good in the sales conversation and that but when they miss a point, the sales conversation breaks apart and it doesn’t feel good anymore. And that’s, I think, is also the challenge where most people do not like selling or even, you know, detest sales because they never it never feels good.

Judy Hoberman [12:54]
Right, but the problem is that most people don’t listen. Okay, they might ask a great question, then they’re writing down. Okay, so the next question I’m going to ask is, and I’m going to tell, you know, whatever. So what I always do is I tell people, ask permission, and I do this all the ask permission, if you could take notes. When you take notes, you have to listen, okay? There’s no way around it, you have to listen. So if I’m asking you a question, and you’re telling me that your best friend didn’t have insurance, and here’s what happened, dah, dah, dah, dah. And so I’m really concerned with that. You just told me your why. Okay, if I didn’t hear that, if I wasn’t listening, it would have just gone right over. And then I would say, so why is it important for you to have insurance? And you already just told me this, right. So I always make sure that you listen, listening is a much different skill than asking the questions. If you don’t listen, you have to be an active listener, because otherwise, you miss the most important points. And you know, as well as I do, I mean, if you’ve ever had to call to ask a question for a company, and then they say, hold, please, and then they push you to the next one. You have to repeat the whole thing and they say, Oh, hold, please. And after you’ve said it 10 times, that’s what it feels like in a sales conversation if you’re not listening. It’s like, oh, okay, now you’re gonna pass me to somebody else. So I’m, I’m a very good listener. And I hear things that most people don’t hear, you can ask my husband, he says, I have dog ears, I can hear like, way decibels that don’t even exist in the real world because I’m a really good listener. And that’s important, because the best compliment as a salesperson you can ever get is, wow you really listen to me.

Christine Schlonski [14:28]
Yeah, totally agree. And that was for me a big learning, like after I had my little pitch in place, and I felt comfortable saying what I had to say and asking the price I had to ask, not preparing your answer while the other person still speaks. But giving that space to really listen and to catch these tiny hints. Their motivation or why they need what you might have to offer so important, so how can people become better listeners then?

Judy Hoberman [15:01]
Well, I think the first thing you do is you take notes, I do believe that that’s the number one thing you could do. The second thing is you can ask clarifying questions or you know, you can say so is this what you are looking for or so on. But one of the big, big, big questions that I always tell people to ask and I always call it like, you know, the secret weapon is after you’ve done your fact-finding because everybody has to do fact-finding, and you can call it whatever you want. Asking questions, fact-finding whatever you want to say before you are even ready to say, Are you ready to buy, however you say it, you need to ask one more question at that moment, not before, not after. So you’re just about ready, but not quite. You’ve gotten all this information. But whatever. You ask one more question and you say, is there anything else? What happens is every objection that you would get at the end, I don’t have the money. I don’t have the time. I don’t really understand all these things, that oh, by the way, they’re going to say, you know what? Yeah, there is something. So here’s what I heard about your company. Blah, blah. Like you said, you know, that’s a great question. Let me, let me answer that. And then you say, is there anything else? So remember, you’re listening to all of this. And yeah, actually, I heard that your policy doesn’t do X, Y, and Z. Okay. So let me explain that. Is there anything else? It’s almost like a ping pong game or a tennis match? And then after two or three times, you ask it again. So is there anything else? The person generally will say. No, you answered all my questions. This is exactly what I’m looking for. There is no close because they just did it themselves. Because you responded to the questions that you heard them ask, what the answers that made sense. So that, I mean, it’s, I’ve done this forever. It came really by accident the first time it happened, and when I heard you know, that she had this huge objection. And I answered it, and you know, a couple of more and she said, Wow, this is it. This is exactly what I was looking for. And I thought, well, how did that happen? So.

Christine Schlonski [16:55]
Yeah, and I love it and you went back, you analyze. That call or that conversation. And therefore you could use it for the future ones. But that’s also what I would love for people or invite people to really be open to analyze the conversations to understand where you know where they went wrong or down a path that wasn’t great because they did not listen enough or they did not ask that additional question they should have and rushed into the sale because they really want to get rid of the sales conversation because it feels so uncomfortable instead of seeing it as a relationship-building tool. Right, it would not really rush out when you sit with your friends.

Judy Hoberman [17:38]
Well, you know, I think one of the things that happen with salespeople and it doesn’t matter what industry you’re in, there’s a time in your career, could be the beginning, middle or end doesn’t matter. There’s a time when your income is not where you need it to be. You need more money, you can’t pay your bill, you can’t whatever and you walk into an appointment and you have this desperate feeling. And people I used to call it commission breath, people smell it. So that you have to have something before you walk into your appointments that you do to pump yourself up, whether it’s music, whether it’s an affirmation doesn’t matter, whatever you need to do, even if you just take a deep breath and go, I got this doesn’t matter, right? You just shake it all out, and you just go in because that is the biggest nightmare for not only the person listening to it, but the person that is actually the salesperson. It’s a horrible thing to be desperate, and we’ve all gone through it and we go through it, but you have to do something prior to because you will lose the sale without question, you’ll lose the sale and then you can’t analyze it, because you have no idea what the heck you did. So I used to have a notebook and at the end of my appointment, I would go in my car and I write down what I liked, what I didn’t like, what worked, what didn’t work. I used to do this with my kids. When we looked at colleges, right after we looked at a college I’d make them sit down with their notebook and do the same thing. What they liked, what they didn’t like. So you get to the next one and you forget that. So as a salesperson, if you don’t do it right away, when you get to the next one, you’re like, okay, so what happened? So I used to do it all the time. And I would look and I would say, wow, this really worked. And that’s how, is there anything else came about because it worked. And I thought, this I got exactly what I needed, so I could support them in their decision. It wasn’t my decision, it was their decision. That’s the other part of it. It has to be something that you can, you know, help them support them. But if it’s not right, you need to walk away. You never do something that isn’t the best for your client. And that’s the other piece that salespeople sometimes don’t get.

Christine Schlonski [19:40]
Yeah, yeah, I would love to touch on that in the next episode, and I’m so grateful that we do have another one. For right now, I would love to come back to that commission breath as you call it. Neediness, like the energy of neediness, like being desperate for the sale because I think we’ve all been there, I for sure have been there. And if you can’t turn it around, it will repel people, because they will, as you said, they smell it a mile away. So what can you do like if you’re really desperate, let’s say you are building your company, and nothing works at the moment and maybe it hasn’t worked for months and months and you know, you’re already maxed your credit card, what could you do to raise your energy and to really come back in that to that place where you are empowered, and where you can show up as a leader and as a confident or most confident version of yourself, as you would show up if everything works out beautifully.

Judy Hoberman [20:43]
So one of the things is you can’t do this by yourself, cannot so if you don’t have somebody that you report to, or somebody that you trust, find someone you know, invest in a coach, because a coach is going to be more objective for you and to you. So that would be the first thing and I remember, you know, in the beginning, I didn’t have money for a coach, but I did find money for a coach, because I needed somebody that was not going to let me sabotage myself. The other thing is, most of us have some really good clients could be, you know, even if you’re just starting your business, somebody that has said something great about you and your company, I asked people, if they don’t automatically give me a testimonial, or before anything, I will ask them, would you mind, you know, shooting a little video for me or whatever. And what I do, it’s not that I’m putting it out everywhere. I have a folder. So when those days come where I am so upset because nothing’s going right or I can’t pay my bills or whatever it is. I will go into my folder. I will watch the videos. I’ll read what people have written about me and then I say, this is why I do it. And then I start all over again. Because I mean, if you don’t have get in, if you don’t have a coach, I would find one but sometimes all you need is something to spark the interest again and to figure out your why, you know, what was your why in the beginning, you should always have that somewhere where you can read it or whatever. And so that will bring it back again. And it’s amazing how quickly it’ll turn. Either way, if you don’t have success. I mean, again, let’s go back to the insurance industry. If you don’t have success, almost immediately, you’re out the door. You just can’t do this. It’s too hard. I don’t like it. It’s boring. It’s this. It’s that I can’t make any money. You’re gone. If you don’t have somebody to coach you along the way. So in any industry when you’re desperate, people know it. I have heard people come and go into appointments and say, you know, I just need one more sale and then I’ll make I will, you know, win this contest. No way. I’m not like, right. I’m like, Who cares if you need one more sale. You know, I’ve also walked away from sales. I will say to them, you know what, what you have is better than when I have you should stay there and they’ll say to me, didn’t you just lose commission? Like, yeah, but that’s okay. Because you need to be where you are. And then I would get tons of referrals because I did the right thing. So don’t just when you’re desperate, think of ways to get around it. Go back to your why. Go back to somebody that can give you some reason, have you know that you’ve done something great for them? Or get yourself a coach, a mentor, get somebody that can just say, you’re good. This is what’s going on. And here’s the other piece, and then I’ll stop talking for a minute. Here’s the other piece. Sometimes it’s one word that you say, that triggers them not to buy. I had I had an agent, and she would call me from every appointment and this was the conversation. Hi, Judy. It’s Nikki, how are you? I’m with, I’m visiting Christine right now. And I would say don’t say visiting. You’re not visiting. You have an appointment with Christine because when you say visiting, oh, she’s my friend. She’ll come back doesn’t matter. I don’t really need to buy from her. Whatever. Well, it took her almost a month to stop say visiting. And when she did all of a sudden took her seriously then okay, so let’s get down to business. So sometimes somebody can hear it and say to you don’t say it like this, say it like this, change your words, change your mindset, change whatever you need to change. And it’s amazing, but you can’t see it yourself.

Christine Schlonski [24:16]
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s so powerful. You know, I had clients going from one after one conversation, really understanding their value from charging 350 to over $2,000 for the same thing, but they have confidence in you, they even bring more value. They were kind of really entitled might not be the right word, but they, they really could own that kind of money, because they delivered so much more, but they also had the confidence to ask for it. That I also teach my clients to have this awesomeness folder where they put like the videos every few minutes in the bed where somebody says something nice, because we all have these days where we don’t feel like it or maybe we even feel like giving up or it’s just too difficult or whatever else has happened. So that it kind of takes away that spark. And if you don’t reignite that spark, well, then you know, life is not that much fun.

Judy Hoberman [25:15]
It’s a spiral going down. That’s what happens. And then you’re done. You’re thinking, Okay, I can’t do this anymore. Yeah,

Christine Schlonski [25:19]
yeah. And the beauty in sales is that you can turn it around each and every moment. Absolutely. Absolutely. Next call, someone could say yes to you. And when I understood that, that was really when sales was even more attractive than before, because it could change it like every day, every minute, like how many jobs are out there where you can’t change anything. While you can change the job, but with being in sales, you can change in every single conversation.

Judy Hoberman [25:48]
Because everyone is different. Every single thing is different. Even when it’s the same type of person. It’s just, it’s the same kind of family. It’s in the same neighborhood. If one could be amazing, and one they could have had the biggest fight right? Before you got there and they weren’t doing anything, you don’t know that. You don’t know that you just take it personally. Oh, it was me. Oh, it was me.

Christine Schlonski [26:08]
Awesome. Well, thank you so, so much, Judy. I’m so excited for our next conversation. But I do want to send people to the amazing gift you’re giving us and it’s a mini-guide. But that mini-guide is pretty powerful. So tell us, tell us about it.

Judy Hoberman [26:24]
So the mini-guide is called skirting the issues my company is Selling in a Skirt. So everything has to do with a skirt. And trust me when I tell you it is not only for women, it’s an acronym. It’s standing out keys to success, inspiration, results-oriented, and time management. And this mini-guide gives you different kinds of ideas and experiences of where you’re, you know, how to sell to women, how to work with women, how to sell to men, so it’s kind of like a mini version of everything that we do and it’s the stuff that you can implement today, which is also the best part. So you can do things and you say, I can do that today, you don’t change everything, you change one thing, and you just work with that. You can get it at www.sellingaskirt.com/special-offer. That’s what it is.

Christine Schlonski [27:19]
Yeah. And obviously, it’s going to be in the Show Notes as well, as well as all the links to connect with you. Because I really want for you a beautiful listener, connect with Judy, you will love her work, you will get so much value out of all the content she puts out. And if you have a chance to work with her, go for it. Like that. That’s gonna make the difference. So thank you so, so much. I’m really looking forward to our next conversation. And yeah, have a wonderful day.

Judy Hoberman [27:45]
You too.

Christine Schlonski [27:47]
Well, there were so many golden nuggets in this episode. I am so excited and I hope you caught them all. So before you go into your next sales conversation, make sure you practice your price in case you’re not 100% confident. And in case you are, well, maybe it is time to think about repricing or charging a higher rate. Because you might still be undervaluing your services. And then obviously, you have to practice again, to make it easy to not stammer on your words when you actually say what you’re offering and to just have a conversation that is inflow, and that feels natural. Also, I love Judy’s advice that she always sat down and took notes after each and every single conversation to really understand what has worked, what hasn’t worked, what has worked really, really well, what could she repeat and other conversations, and I just want to invite you to do the same. Get yourself a little notebook and really start being mindful, what you are saying in the conversations and how you can create a bigger impact with your potential clients. Thank you so much for listening today, hop on over to christineschlonski.com. Find the Podcast Tab and the Show Notes, as well as the resources we are sharing in this episode. And all the links to Judy are just one click away at christineschlonski.com/podcasts. I’m really excited about the upcoming conversation I have with Judy, where we basically talk about that you don’t even need to sell anything while growing your business. So if you want to know how that works, make sure you tune in to episode number 256 and so you do not miss a single thing on Heart Sells! Podcast. Once you’re over at christineschlonski.com sign up for the Empowerment Notes where you get updates on Heart Sells! Podcast as well as amazing tips. Ideas are the resources I’m sharing with my tribe. And usually, I do not share that on social media. So you really want to be in that community of hard sellers or the Heart Sells! Community. hop on over to christineschlonski.com and get your Empowerment Notes. Thank you so much for having been here. Have an amazing day, wherever you are in this beautiful world. And I’m saying bye for now.